Mythruna

Just for the sake of discussion, what do you all think of Euclideon (http://www.euclideon.com/)?
Here's two YouTube videos:
1. Their demo video (http://youtu.be/00gAbgBu8R4)
2. An interview (http://youtu.be/JVB1ayT6Fdc)

Notch (http://notch.tumblr.com/post/8386977075/its-a-scam) said (http://notch.tumblr.com/post/8423008802/but-notch-its-not-a-scamurl) it's a scam, but they (Euclideon) denies it in this interview (http://www.kotaku.com.au/2011/08/infinite-detail-and-euclideon-the-elephants-in-the-room/).

(I did that partly to experiment with links on this forum ;))

If you want to model a scene with molecules then you need some way of heavily compressing them or you'll never fit even the simplest scene on your computer.  It's clear even from their videos that they repeat a lot of the same shapes over and over and over and it's unclear how far they can take that.

I sort of believe it is a scam also and without a working demo, it will remain a scam to me.  It's easy to produce videos and in the years and years they've been selling this line it would have been easy to kill all of the nay sayers with a simple tech demo.  But you can't get investment dollars for a lousy tech demo like you can for a pretty video.

I may dig up the link from the JME forums where this was discussed even before notch posted about it.

I hope that this is real :P My mind boggles at the thought of what could be done with this.

I'm not educated very much on the topic of graphic design, how ever my programming side says it's a scam simply because you cannot do "unlimited" things with the CPU's we use now... How ever, can paul please explain to me whats the deal with "They repeat the same objects many times". Could someone recreate something like this if all they had to do is repeat the same objects over and over. Which leads me to an idea for NPC for Mythruna, could you model lets say 10 colors of hair, shirt, pants, shoes, and/or hats. Then make the game generate a random number every start and make every NPC look somewhat different, then store the  NPC data in the save. Sure you would find copies... but alot less :D bad idea? good?

The biggest issue I see with it is like Notch said:

An interview or two were done after that, I think, and they never addressed this. If they just made the same model over and over, though, it might work.

It's still pretty near impossible (I like to hedge my bets but I really do think it's a scam).

My only point was (like Ben says) that if it isn't a scam then for all the reasons Notch mentions, they would have to have some kind of killer compression that was somehow still fast enough to index into to find the right value for the voxel.

When you look at the island in the video... and I look at it with Mythruna eyes so I see "blocks" even where there aren't any... the whole thing looks like a block world to me.  It's just that some of the blocks can be elephant statues, some can be palm trees, etc..  That could either be because the person that made their scam video was really lazy, or because they were trying to make their scam video appear real by giving us something to explain the data issues, or because it's real and that is one of the ways they deal with data explosion.

Even still, they'd have to have some way to compress even a single block and somehow be able to render that quickly from compressed data.

I can guess about ways to do this.  I know how I would try to do this.  But it does not pay to speculate, really, since a) it could all be fake, b) the way I'd do it is probably the way most other 3D devs would do it, c) if that's actually the way then it's not very novel because anyone would think about it given the same limitations... which means that in that case either it's a scam or they are naive.

So if it's real... they have found ways to do four or five different things that seem impossible or overly limited to the rest of us.

Nanomachines.

/end debate :P

Seriously though, that guy in the video (and the whole team including the interviewer) just oozes suspicion. However I do still hope this is legit, for the gaming industries sake.

I don't think it's complete scam, but also I don't think things are completely like they say they are. As Paul said, the size of the files would be giant if they were going to save all the atoms. What they mean by unlimited detail I think, is because there are no polygons, so a simple cube would eat as much performance as a high-poly character. I believe that if this technology gets optimized to be used in regular games, they will have to use some sort of compression for the model files, perhaps like movie files. So if there were 1000 atoms wich were very similar or even the same, it would create some kind of container shape with the information about it, which could save a lot of space.

For the first years (if this ever gets out), this technology will probably be used by Holywood blockbusters, to get even more realism to their computer-rendered environments, since with a few modifications, this can make possible to simulate the real path of light and it's effects, as also accurately simulate water and such fluids. And for filmmakers, space is less precious than performance.

It's like when someone remembered to say that Earth was round, nobody believed. Even now, we don't accept strange things that seem impossible for us. Just my two cents. :)

Yes, but the earth is in a system that we only have a small percentage of understanding.

This program has to run on hardware that is 100% fully understood by millions of people... since it was a system 100% manufactured by man.

I think the chance that they've come up with something so far in outer space that none of us can understand how it works is probably pretty slim.

The fact the no one outside of their company seems to have played a tech demo leans it squarely into the realm of vaporware.

Prediction: 3-4 years from now, we'll still be talking about this wondering if it's real or not.  After all, these discussions have been going on for a couple years just for this company.

I'd like to believe it is real.  I'd also like to believe that time travel is real.  I think they are about as likely... and the fact that I've never sent myself a message back in time is reasonable confirmation that time travel is not invented in my life time. :)

That... or machines rule the future :D which reminds me the Mass Effect story is very nice... never played any of the games but I read the almost the whole Mass Effect wiki :D It's about how some AI using the reapers to keep killing organic life in the solar system every few million years to prevent organic life from creating "machine" life forms (forgot the technical term) since machine life forms always tend to be better then the organic and would eventually wipe out all organic life forms including the reapers soooo the reapers destroy the galaxies populace before it can achieve that level of technology and to allow better, stronger organic life to form after them. cool shit

@Paul Well, they played a demo on the interview. Unless you are saying the interviewer (who played it with by himself) belongs to the company, then someone outside the company really played the demo.

Also, this technology exists for many years , it hasn't just been adopted because it still didn't reach the quality of polygons-based rendering. Actually, games like Minecraft and Mythruna (at least until now) are voxel games that use polygons, but they could use the same technique as Euclideon. The main diference is that the blocks form Mythruna and Minecraft are much bigger than simple atoms, but are voxels too. :)

I don't know the interviewer.  I don't know what smoke and mirrors they have.  If they setup a demo at a trade show and let random people walk up and play then maybe I'll start believing.

It's not the same technique that minecraft and Mythruna use even if the source data might be similar.  We take simple low-resolution voxels and turn them into sets of polygons.  This is very straight forward but cannot be scaled up to the "atom" level.

If these guys had anything novel that could deal with arbitrary source data then they'd already be making a fortune in the medical imaging market.  You deal with HUGE point clouds.

So, if it's real, the source data must be highly compressed and highly contrived.

I guess we'll know for sure in 10 years or so.

Actually time travel IS believable, we can only time travel back to when time travel was invented. So as soon as we make a time-machine someone in the future is going to go through his/her time machine and destroy ours. So it's most likely we will just see an explosion as soon as we start it up.  ::)

My kaspersky anti-virus is flipping out about things... It says Youtube has...
A dangerous link. (through its reputation service) Even to paul's channels.

I won't even begin to go into the details of why time travel is impossible... but for your entertainment
(http://i.imgur.com/AYzhw.jpg)

Heheh.  Nice.  It's funny because if you really work through the details of what a time machine would need to be capable of doing you get really close to what the TARDIS in Doctor Who can do.  And they sort of came at that backwards through convenient narrative devices (I've seen it from the beginning except the missing episodes).

And if you had two time machines that were built to last, you could travel anywhere in the universe instantaneously.

Even if you couldn't easily prove that time travel is impossible, the thought experiments showing all of the ridiculous things that would be possible do cast it in a definite improbable light.

But the fantasy-loving side of my brain really wants it to be possible... so I will easily suspend disbelief for almost any time-travel device (in fiction).

Think about this...

So someone makes time travel and changes his history then he changes everything because of the ripple effect and the flaws become huge... as the world either becomes amazing or shit with wars and what not... so that person travels back to that time to stop himself from doing what he did. Then if he showed someone that he came back from the future and they believed him and made him a millionair and he changed history and then he acidently killed himself since he changed the history in which he worked so hard to create. like he worked super hard to create time travel only to defet his hard work by traveling back in time so he could win lotto like 4 times and get all the women XD btw did you know that in canada the lotto banns people from entering into lotto if they have won more then 2 times because of the threat of time travel

XD hope i mindfucked yall :P

Not really... and the ripple effect is just a theory, for all we know we could be dealing with parallel universes.
 

Yeah.  There is some sci-fi out there that deals with nearly every variation.

In one case, time is mutable and you can go back and change your own past.  These are usually tightly contained story lines that ignore the larger ramifications ("Back to the Future", Star Trek) or basically disaster movies.

In another case, you are creating parallel universes.  This is plausible if you believe in Einsteins description of the different dimensions.  Also, it explains why you still have all of the memories of your own history.  So either you return to your own time and your own universe and nothing has been affected, or you return to a parallel universe and your memories are of a different universe.

In yet another case, time is not mutable.  No matter what you try to do to change your own past, something will intercede to stop you because it couldn't have happened for you to be there.  I thought the movie the Time Machine covered this one pretty well.  If the scientist was able to somehow go back and save his girlfriend then he never would have invented a time machine.

Still another story I saw had the time travelers return to their own time and it was different... but all of the new histories were folded into their memory with the old ones.  If they changed too many things too many times then they started to go crazy.

Gotta love fiction for exploring this stuff.

Since we've totally changed topics, here's something related to time..
MinutePhysics: Einstein and The Special Theory of Relativity (http://youtu.be/ajhFNcUTJI0)

Actually, you just showed it was possible. But nobody would know if he really did until they find no traces of his bodeh. Time travel requires light speed... SPEED. But that's impossible(?) to achieve. So who knows.

Time travel is possible, and in fact we are doing it right now. Controlling our travels through time is harder. According to Einstein, at the speed of light, you will experience no time. From the video, that would be when the planes are vertical. I don't see how you would reverse your personal time-flow under Einstein, but I could be wrong. We can certainly 'slow down' time, relative to each other. The clocks on some satellites orbiting Earth have gotten behind our measurements, because they are moving relatively fast, so that part works.

I can can see why going forward in time could work... but not back in time.
Flies actually see the whole world alot slower then humans, hence why they know exactly how to escape your hand of terror.
But if you think about how the human mind is programmed, the question is: Does the flies brain work faster then ours allowing it to get more detail about the world around it faster then humans... and somehow simulating slow time movement... or is the flies brain simply slower making it take thinks in slower then ours allowing it to see things slower...

Changing the past is impossible, you can only travel to the point time-trav... Time travel was... NOOO I FIGURED IT OUT! Since time travel is impossible because satellites alread time travel right? And you can only travel back to when time travel was invented. IT WAS INVENTED AT THE BEGINNING OF TIME AND SPACE! So why aren't we seeing people from the future? BECAUSE IT'S IMPOSSIBRU! *understands it all* or this is just mixing two theories together.

Satellites are moving fast enough relative to earth that time between us and them gets behind. They aren't going back in time, it just slows down a bit, relative to us.

Don't try to prove me wrong bra. You just said we are already time traveling xD

I said we were going forwards through time...

Just wanted to say that when you guys go off-topic, you completely derail XD
Cool stuff though, other than the fact that my brain hurts now -.-


Where did you see this? Seem really interesting.

It was an Outer Limits I think.  The recent ones not the old black and white ones.  I woman invented a time machine so that she could go back and execute convicted murderers/rapists before they had committed their crimes.  She started to go nuts so she enlisted the help of another woman to take over for her.

(http://www.spacetimestudios.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3654&d=1323812521)

The link seems like it doesn't work.

Go read a physics book people... You cant go backwards in time. IF you move really fast than all you are doing is slowing the passage of time relative to the object you are observing. We all hurtle through the vacuum at around 0.3% the speed of light, but there's no time dilation for us because we measure relative to each other. On a small scale, the only real evidence to support that we are moving forward through time, and not backwards, is entropy. get rid of all those absolutes because ITS ALL RELATIVE..

Physics books have been wrong...
;)

Only because time travelers changed them...   heheh.

 Actually changing the past is impossible. For example: The titanic, People travelled back in time to stop it from happening. The people warned the captain about the iceburg but he didn't believe them, he ran into the iceberg and now all these people are sinking with the ship because of this. :p I still didn't give out enough information. Also you can tell this is a good community: You guys didn't drag space and time-travel into religious bullcrap :D. I hate It when people relate space to religion. SPACE IS SPACE Just leave It at that.

time is moving fords because of god..... he created earth and everything so yea hes the real reason why time travel isnt REAL science shall corrupt us from the path of god. :]




Trolol

This all makes the assumption that beings can only exist in this dimension.  If there are beings that live in the 5th or 6th dimension then they will be able to travel freely to whatever time they wish.  They may not have any more control over modifying it than we do of modifying the molecules of a table... but who knows.

I don't even have a concept of what dimensions higher than 4 would look like.  Imagining seeing the 4th dimension very nearly blows my mind, anyway.

(And never mind the fact that I think the dimensions are misordered and time should have gone first.)

(http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/Rickrolled.gif)

Edit: Time is moving trucks? That changes my concept of time and space. Btw everything you said is exactly how I would picture how time and space began but eh. You just angered me by saying that in an 8 year-old way, and I'm sure you pictured me as someone who doesn't believe in any type of god so yur RONG.

Is it just me, or is everyone doing what Moonkey was glad we weren't doing? I'll just keep out of this..  :)

So, it's a debate on religion you want!?

Please, no.  Let's just keep debating about what we are debating about. :)

MUST DEBATE ABOUT DEBATING... Hehe, anyway. Euclidion hasn't given enough information or anything out for the public so I think it's just like before, it's a bunch o' voxels made into "atoms". It's impossible to simulate atoms on a computer, and the only thing closest to this would be voxels.

Maybe they somehow harness the raw power of "internet debate".  This is an incredible source of energy for anyone who figures out how to tap into it.

Also, Awf Tawpic: If we were to create weapons of mass destruction in the future, the thing is, we couldn't use them for long. Because we would just destroy eachother, Which is why peace balances out chaos.

We have WMD's, and we call them nukes. And we may well be about to destroy each other. However, laser defense systems might fix the problem.

Yea, laser-pinpointing nukes while in their flight could stop destroying a country, but radiation in the air would be bad.

When we go off topic, we go all over the place. :)

I don't know how much radioactive material is in a thermonuclear warhead... probably still best not to scatter it across the atmosphere, I guess but I suspect we get more environmental exposure from weapons testing.

Really, I'm more worried about the crazy-guy with a suitcase bomb and a death wish than I am about a warhead.  I live close enough to a prime target that I'm likely to be a shadow on the wall in only seconds from a warhead... but the aftermath and fall-out from a ground-level nuke would be rather unpleasant.

wouldn't it be possible, in theory to disable the nuke midair. Shoot it in the perfect places to disarm it? or do nukes go Boom from impact?

Nukes do not go boom from impact.  They require a carefully orchestrated series of things to happen.

But they do have some amount of raw nuclear material (plutonium,uranium, etc.)... and that's the part that we probably don't want scattered in the atmosphere.

Sooo, dudes in truck arrive... rearm, and put a nice return to sender sticker on it

My dad worked on bombs. Gyro bombs. These bombs had heads that spun around. and it was laser guided. (It falls out of a plane and the front of it spins around towards the laser and the jet propeller in the back thrusts it at the area it's pointing) He was in the army. Although I've never seen him in the army since I was born. He has alot of stories. He was flown to Germany... He went everywhere. He even accidentally drove a tank underwater (I think it was just an Armored Vehicle) but It still worked underwater... Never knew tanks could do that.

I'm pretty sure they have something better than laser-pointer guidance-systems.
I was meaning lasers to shoot nukes down. We almost have the technology to put a laser in a Boeing 747 that can shoot down a nuke from a couple km away.
The fallout could still be bad, nukes work by blasting a few hunks of uranium (or whatever) at each other to gain critical mass. If you sliced the nuke right, you could separate them, and they would stay in two pieces.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank#Mobility (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank#Mobility)

There is more than two options (full out scam or completely real)... There is grey area in between. The truth is somewhere in the grey area imho.

I think its probably like communism - it looks great on paper but falls to shit when you try to use it in reality.

Just my two cents.

THEREFOR... no fallout... only some uranium that the army cleans up. DUR HUR

Except it's probably been blown to dust and scattered to the winds.