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[pspeed]

What if, instead of levels which require xp, you had proficiencies involving an amount of times you performed x skill.  Because, even though you might "learn" a skill, doesn't mean your good at it.  If you learn the skill to make a bow, you might make it good one time and completely ruin it the next.  But through practice (number of times performed) you gain proficiency.  A master bowmaker would make much better bows, maybe even with added bonuses or properties, which an apprentice bowmaker would not.  This gives incentive for players to improve certain skills.  Obviously some skills would not require a proficiency, they can just be learned.....but for some, this would be a cool feature.

If you actually learn how to make a bow then you can make it every time.  In real life, once you make a bow the first time then you pretty much know how to do it.  You might get faster/better at it within some amount but you will never "fail" to make a bow. 

It is more likely that once you've learned how to make a basic bow that you might learn things you can add or do differently.  A master bow maker will make better bows because he knows much more than just how to make a simple bow.

There will be other ways to improve yourself that won't make you sit there doing one thing over and over 1000 times.  That doesn't really sound like fun to me and I don't know why we let our games make us do that.  It also leads to other sort of ridiculous behavior like running and jumping everywhere you go to improve your athletics and agility skills (I'm looking at you Oblivion ).

Worst of all, if you had to make 100 bows just to get good at making bows then those bows basically need to be nearly worthless or the whole game economy gets destroyed.  So either you make player-made stuff worth a tiny fraction of regular equipment (I've seen some games do this) or you make the markup at stores so high that regular loot is nearly worthless (I've seen games do this, too).  There are few alternatives.

I don't want to do that.  If you kill a bunch of creatures and lug all of their equipment back to town (an undertaking in and of itself) then it should at least be worth the scrap material.  So frustrating to have a game where a sword only sells for 1 or 2 gold just so that you don't get rich creature-farming.

The whole "XP" problem is insidious and negatively affects every other system... all based on the assumption that it was required in the first place.  And really, most of the people I know personally who really love that sort of thing are the ones that are trying to scam every point they can and maximize their builds to gain some game-balance advantage.

Sorry to ramble but this is something that I feel very strongly about.  My approach is somewhat of an experiment because I've never really seen it done before but I'm not ready to compromise on the idea until flops or something.

[belgariad87]

ok i just re-read this thread because i wanted to make sure i remembered how you were doing training right. and i hope i understand it right cuz if i do... wow.

So have you put any programming into this yet? or has your time been too filled with physics engines and whatnot

[pspeed]

ok i just re-read this thread because i wanted to make sure i remembered how you were doing training right. and i hope i understand it right cuz if i do... wow.

So have you put any programming into this yet? or has your time been too filled with physics engines and whatnot

No real programming yet.  The skill tree is not hard nor are the trappings (help screens, etc.)   All of the time will be spent in the actual crafting interfaces (where appropriate).

I have some simple crafts that I may add that don't really require any special interface.  That would let me test the skill tree and get that working before tackling the more complicated parts.  It would also give people a feel for how that will work.

[belgariad87]

ok i just re-read this thread because i wanted to make sure i remembered how you were doing training right. and i hope i understand it right cuz if i do... wow.

So have you put any programming into this yet? or has your time been too filled with physics engines and whatnot

No real programming yet.  The skill tree is not hard nor are the trappings (help screens, etc.)   All of the time will be spent in the actual crafting interfaces (where appropriate).

I have some simple crafts that I may add that don't really require any special interface.  That would let me test the skill tree and get that working before tackling the more complicated parts.  It would also give people a feel for how that will work.

That sounds like it would be fun to test. whats the next hardest thing to code after physics?

[pspeed]

That sounds like it would be fun to test. whats the next hardest thing to code after physics?

AI.  Definitely AI.  When I have those two things mostly done, I will feel a huge sigh of relief.

[belgariad87]

That sounds like it would be fun to test. whats the next hardest thing to code after physics?

AI.  Definitely AI.  When I have those two things mostly done, I will feel a huge sigh of relief.

i've heard AI can be very tricky. but no doubt you'll get the hang of it    you'll need to make good AI if you want to pull off some of the things youve been saying

[Moonkey]

That sounds like it would be fun to test. whats the next hardest thing to code after physics?

AI.  Definitely AI.  When I have those two things mostly done, I will feel a huge sigh of relief.

i've heard AI can be very tricky. but no doubt you'll get the hang of it    you'll need to make good AI if you want to pull off some of the things youve been saying

It's very tricky indeed. Like when you add an enemy to fend itself from bears, but then it gets attacked from something else you didn't script it to attack. But what you were too ignorant to notice was that you could've made it aggressive to everything except it's own kind. <:/...

[JKybett]

With the skills that have prerequisite skills; how specific would the prerequisites be?
For example: would I have to learn to carve wood before I can learn to carve a bow; or would I have to learn different aspects of cooking or could I just learn to cook and be able to throw a chicken onto a fire as easily as stuff it, season it and slow spit-roast it? (Just examples, I'm not expecting to have to season my food)

and, what sort of skills would you not need to learn, for example I saw horse-riding mentioned somewhere. Would we innately be able to ride a horse and fire a bow while standing in the saddle or would we have to learn to ride first or learn to ride and then learn to ride whilst handling weaponry?

FYI, It annoys me that I, in real life, can't ride a horse but game characters seem to have a natural, unexplained gift for it :L

[Iggyjeckel]

Im guessing game riding bow shooting horsemen would jave to be learned lol

[JKybett]

You say that, and I really hope so but I've played games before where it's an inherit skill and I've just been like "Whuuuu?!"

[Iggyjeckel]

Pretty sure this on will not be one of those games lol

[Michael]

Ah, I have expanded my knowledge by i would say 20% since i came to Mythruna, thank you all

[JKybett]

Always good to learn. :L

[pspeed]

With the skills that have prerequisite skills; how specific would the prerequisites be?
For example: would I have to learn to carve wood before I can learn to carve a bow; or would I have to learn different aspects of cooking or could I just learn to cook and be able to throw a chicken onto a fire as easily as stuff it, season it and slow spit-roast it? (Just examples, I'm not expecting to have to season my food)

and, what sort of skills would you not need to learn, for example I saw horse-riding mentioned somewhere. Would we innately be able to ride a horse and fire a bow while standing in the saddle or would we have to learn to ride first or learn to ride and then learn to ride whilst handling weaponry?

FYI, It annoys me that I, in real life, can't ride a horse but game characters seem to have a natural, unexplained gift for it :L

I think pretty much anything that I can tie to a skill, I will.  Horse riding will definitely be a skill.  A lot of skills will be like that: can I do it or not? kind of thing.

For example, maybe there is some kind of skill for "efficient carrying" where the weight of your equipment doesn't fatigue you as fast in normal walking or something.  I don't mind adding all kinds of these sorts of skills since they are essentially free for me and allow a person to customize their character more.

I will make skill requisites as granular as necessary to make sense.  There also will then probably be skills you pick up automatically as part of learning something else.  So example, if you learn to carve a bow then you automatically pick up a basic spoke-shave use skill that might make some other skill easier to learn but otherwise isn't a learnable skill on its own.  That sort of depends on how I end up calculating training time and costs.  No reason to have those skills if they don't factor into anything.  It may be that not having one of these types of prereqs doubles the training cost or something.

Keep in mind that you will also start with some skills that you can select at character creation time.  So the more granular and numerous the basic skills are, the more initial slots I will give people so that they can make a functioning adult.  You don't want to say things like "Well, my 32 old elf can't read or write because I taught him to swim and ride a horse instead."  These are unreasonable trade-offs.

I think cooking will be a skill.  I don't know how it will work in game yet.  I've known enough people who never learned to cook to know that asking some random person to cook a chicken over a fire is not going to work out well in general.  A decent cook who has never cooked over fire will probably make raw-in-the-middle or thoroughly burned chicken-leather like that.  It may seem silly that your character would never know how to make basic meals but it happens in real life... and if your character has been really obsessed with a completely different kind of skill set then it is reasonable to think that he/she must rely on others for cooking.  I think it adds color to the adventures.  And if factors over into the NPCs, also.  If you are escorting some spoiled rich merchant's son across the wilderness, chances are you are going to have to cook for him.

All that being said, I will keep granularity reasonable.  A skill you can learn in five minutes + some personal experimenting is not a skill at all.  So, for example, I'm going to assume that any Mythrunian that has reached adulthood can figure out flint and steel if it is handed to them and a basic demonstration given.

[JKybett]

Horse riding will definitely be a skill.

YAY!

I don't mind adding all kinds of these sorts of skills since they are essentially free for me and allow a person to customize their character more.

This bit's just made me realise, you could introduce new skills much more smoothly than other games, you won't get that Runescape style "Hey, I can now put these together and do this. Couldn't do that yesterday :S" thing. As you need to go learn the skill it will be like masters of a particular skill have just moved into the world rather than your character apparently discovering skills your character seems to have picked up while you're offline.

It may be that not having one of these types of prereqs doubles the training cost or something.

Good idea, hadn't thought of this but it makes sense. Noone's going to teach someone who's never touched the tools before how to become a master for the same price as teaching someone who's almost there. Makes sense.

Well, my 32 old elf can't read or write because I taught him to swim and ride a horse instead.

Does this mean that reading and writing and swimming will be learnable skills? I would think that reading and writing would be something that the player's literacy would cover and surely the illiteracy of the general population would make petitioning more difficult, not to mention keeping citizens of a town/city informed on the community's news. It's good to think that swimming isn't innate though, makes ships and boats more logical.

I think cooking will be a skill...
...It may seem silly that your character would never know how to make basic meals but it happens in real life... and if your character has been really obsessed with a completely different kind of skill set then it is reasonable to think that he/she must rely on others for cooking.

Makes sense, it would also mean that owning a bakery or similar business would make more sense.

I think it adds color to the adventures.  And if factors over into the NPCs, also.  If you are escorting some spoiled rich merchant's son across the wilderness, chances are you are going to have to cook for him.

Again, good idea. It's always seemed too simple when, in RPGs, you're told to escort someone and you only have to get from A to B without them dying.

All that being said, I will keep granularity reasonable.  A skill you can learn in five minutes + some personal experimenting is not a skill at all.  So, for example, I'm going to assume that any Mythrunian that has reached adulthood can figure out flint and steel if it is handed to them and a basic demonstration given.

Makes sense, you don't want to have to spend ages finding someone willing to teach you the obvious, although I think firemaking could be something you could improve on ingame. E.g. maybe it can be easier to get a proper fire going, or you can make a longer-lasting fire if you're learnt how. I think pretty much anything the boyscouts have a badge for would make sense as a skill. :L