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Author Topic: belgariad87's Ultimate Suggestion list #1  (Read 12332 times)
belgariad87
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« on: September 11, 2012, 08:11:59 PM »

I imagine this is where this post should go, so here I go-
Since I found Mythruna and this site a few days ago, I've been consumed by thoughts on how the game might be or how i hope it will be. Not that if it's different i won't like it, mind you, but just thoughts on how *I* would go about the ideas already posed by Paul. I have been writing all my ideas in a journal under their categories, and have decided that there is enough (for now) to make at least one post of suggestions. Like I said, I only want to show Paul and the community my perspective on what he's been proposing, and you guys can yay or nay it however you like. Now lets hope I understood Paul correctly:

1. The Magic Slot concept:
My idea for this is that their should be 2 windows for equipping things- 1 for physical equipment like weapons and armor, the other for "magic essence" (ethereal (yet colorful) spheres of pure magic energy) slots, whereever they are on that races body, and you can press a button to switch the view between them (I picture a body of that race with slots where certain equipment or essence is supposed to go).
Humans, like Paul said, will have the most slots for magic due to their bodies taking their innovative nature. HOWEVER, I disagree that humans should be able to obtain the magical abilities other races have, ever, magic essence or otherwise. This is to make the other races truly unique and important, rather than to just pick a human every time, knowing you would get what the other races have in the end anyway. That means, if you want to fly, you pick Avian, because that is their unique trait and humans shouldn't get it. I made some examples of what i think some races should have as fixed traits, but there's only a few and they are only barely thought out. They are:
Cat Vision- Pantherians have an innate magic vision in low-to-no lighting. Pantherians can always see fairly clearly, be it in caves or in a forest at night.
Thick Bones- Dwarves' bones are magically enfused so they are extra hardy and strong. Dwarves fatigue slower than any other race, and are slightly stronger.
Magic Scales- Due to small amounts of Dragon blood in Reptilians, their scales are hard and may even turn away a sword. Gives a decent bonus to armor class.
These are just a few, but I hope you see what i was getting at. I have to think more about how the essence would be gained/found, though I'm sure Paul already has ideas on that. maybe in another post.
2.Races & Classes
OK, so I know Paul has shied away from the concept of classes, but please hear me out. I don't mean classes as the typical rogue, warrior, mage, etc., but rather where you are in life when you start the game, so its more like you starting profession. Note, however, that choosing one class doesn't alienate you from anything in the game, it just gives you starting options. My ideas for this are limited and probably imbalanced because I don't really know what all Paul has up his sleeve, but here's what I got:
Governor- You start as a small-time official of a nearby/home town. You have some beginning money, though not much, and/or have a town charter or town plot (http://mythruna.com/forum/index.php?topic=11.0)
Mercenary- You have lived your whole life by the sword, for it is your livelihood and salvation. Start the game with an ok weapon and 1 or 2 armor pieces. (maybe more to add to that class)
Miner- The mine is like a second home to you. You start with a pickaxe and a weak miner's helmet.
Though there is only 3, they can help propel you in the direction you were hoping to go.
3.Mobs & Dragons
The mobs part i will add in a later post, so for now its about dragons. This is a small section, just a few ideas i had thought of. I believe that dragons should be of different colors and do different things depending on color (though I'd be happy with just different looking dragons). The dragons should live deep underground or in mountains, and (this part is out there) possibly even a cutscene of some sort for the first dragon you awaken. If just deep underground, he should shoot up, leaving a crater to where he once was. If in a mountain, they just fly forward, out of the mountain. Drops from dragons should be very high level and very hard to obtain.
4.Overall Concept Balancing
Now this is where I really have been thinking about. This section covers overall gameplay mechanics and how to balance those mechanics into a multi-faceted game. First, I'd like to say that the building part of the game is great, but it should not be all or even most of what you do in the game. I'd give it *maybe* a third of the game, if that. It should be used to interact and move the world around you and to allow you to create and build the homes and objects of your dreams, but thats about it (in the RPG mode, at least). The other 2 thirds should be given to these 2 concepts: Mining/Crafting and Questing/Dungeon "Crawling". I strongly suggest that NPCs in towns have randomized quests to do, and maybe even dungeons to do it in. But even without the dungeons, questing gives the player a way to do odd-jobs for money and food, and may even be a part of a line of quests. Food and drink should also be a constant worry for the player (at varying degrees maybe for different difficulties). mining and selling gems, and doing quests should be the main ways players get money for food. If the player has enough land and the right tools, he may start a farm of some kind for food, but this should take at least a little while to create. Bottles could be used to get river water for the drink aspect. Food and drink specifics may also be changed by what race you are.
Mining and crafting should be *almost* as important as it is in minecraft, though the crafting bit would be more for creating gear and potions and RPG stuff. To mine (break) stone and ores, one needs a pickaxe. Not sure about having durability in for equipment, so I'll just say I'm on the fence for that. However, I do think that there should be different levels of pickaxes, and you need stronger ores to make stronger pickaxes to get even stronger ores (like in minecraft). Also, this gives even more choices for the player, since they would have to make the choice between using their more rare ores for a pickaxe to get other better ores, or to stick with your old pickaxe and use that ore for creating any number of other equipment. I hope for at least 8 or 10 different types of metals, some real and some not so real. The very high level ores might be only craftable by master blacksmiths of certain races, and you may need to enlist their help.
5.Experience and Levels, ala Might & Magic
This will be my last section for this post tonight, and it won't be big, considering I just thought of it as I was typing earlier. For what I've read that Paul wants, and looking at what I've suggested, I believe the ideal system for experience and levels would be something similar to Might & Magic 6-8's system (as far as getting new levels, what the levels mean and possibly skill levels and how to get them). If you have never played, seen, or heard of Might & Magic, then look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Might_and_Magic_VI:_The_Mandate_of_Heaven for a small description. The main points I wanted to bring over are to have the abilities either already obtained, or gotten through training by an NPC. Once obtained, you can put points you gain through levels into skills of your choosing. Once the correct amount of points are put into a skill, you may find another NPC who will train you to greater degrees of that skill (expert, master, etc.). Every town should have a trainer, who will allow you to advance to the next level once you have enough experience, for a little bit of coin. This RPG concept alone is simple to understand but hard to master, giving the game even more appeal.

Well thats it for now. If you actually read through all of this, congrats and thanks! The things I've suggested here I truly believe would make the final RPG mode of the game fun and engaging, and the idea of a somewhat never-ending-yet-unique adventure would have players coming from everywhere. Things like mobs, rideable creatures, ore types, and magic essence finding will most likely dominate the next installment.
TTFN! (TaTaForNow!)
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« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2012, 06:23:00 AM »

Note: all of my answers will be related to how I plan to write the game.  Mods can change any of this, of course.

I imagine this is where this post should go, so here I go-
Since I found Mythruna and this site a few days ago, I've been consumed by thoughts on how the game might be or how i hope it will be. Not that if it's different i won't like it, mind you, but just thoughts on how *I* would go about the ideas already posed by Paul. I have been writing all my ideas in a journal under their categories, and have decided that there is enough (for now) to make at least one post of suggestions. Like I said, I only want to show Paul and the community my perspective on what he's been proposing, and you guys can yay or nay it however you like. Now lets hope I understood Paul correctly:

1. The Magic Slot concept:
My idea for this is that their should be 2 windows for equipping things- 1 for physical equipment like weapons and armor, the other for "magic essence" (ethereal (yet colorful) spheres of pure magic energy) slots, whereever they are on that races body, and you can press a button to switch the view between them (I picture a body of that race with slots where certain equipment or essence is supposed to go).
Humans, like Paul said, will have the most slots for magic due to their bodies taking their innovative nature. HOWEVER, I disagree that humans should be able to obtain the magical abilities other races have, ever, magic essence or otherwise. This is to make the other races truly unique and important, rather than to just pick a human every time, knowing you would get what the other races have in the end anyway. That means, if you want to fly, you pick Avian, because that is their unique trait and humans shouldn't get it. I made some examples of what i think some races should have as fixed traits, but there's only a few and they are only barely thought out. They are:
Cat Vision- Pantherians have an innate magic vision in low-to-no lighting. Pantherians can always see fairly clearly, be it in caves or in a forest at night.
Thick Bones- Dwarves' bones are magically enfused so they are extra hardy and strong. Dwarves fatigue slower than any other race, and are slightly stronger.
Magic Scales- Due to small amounts of Dragon blood in Reptilians, their scales are hard and may even turn away a sword. Gives a decent bonus to armor class.
These are just a few, but I hope you see what i was getting at. I have to think more about how the essence would be gained/found, though I'm sure Paul already has ideas on that. maybe in another post.

It's about balance.  If a human wants to use up all of their magic slots to become the equivalent of a reptilian (with all of the same negatives) then I don't see why that's a problem... now they have no more slots to do anything else.  Likewise, if you want to turn your human into an Avian equivalent... which probably takes at least two of your slots and now you can't carry heavy things anymore if you want to fly... I also don't see a problem with that.  Levitation magic will definitely be possible.  You might not have the wings but you will be able to "fly".

If there isn't this parity then it risks letting one race somehow dominate the others.

2.Races & Classes
OK, so I know Paul has shied away from the concept of classes, but please hear me out. I don't mean classes as the typical rogue, warrior, mage, etc., but rather where you are in life when you start the game, so its more like you starting profession. Note, however, that choosing one class doesn't alienate you from anything in the game, it just gives you starting options. My ideas for this are limited and probably imbalanced because I don't really know what all Paul has up his sleeve, but here's what I got:
Governor- You start as a small-time official of a nearby/home town. You have some beginning money, though not much, and/or have a town charter or town plot (http://mythruna.com/forum/index.php?topic=11.0)
Mercenary- You have lived your whole life by the sword, for it is your livelihood and salvation. Start the game with an ok weapon and 1 or 2 armor pieces. (maybe more to add to that class)
Miner- The mine is like a second home to you. You start with a pickaxe and a weak miner's helmet.
Though there is only 3, they can help propel you in the direction you were hoping to go.

Players will have control over their starting equipment and if I include a character back story then they will have control over that, too.  You will never start with a town charter.  That's like giving a warrior a +5 sword and +5 armor to start with.

3.Mobs & Dragons
The mobs part i will add in a later post, so for now its about dragons. This is a small section, just a few ideas i had thought of. I believe that dragons should be of different colors and do different things depending on color (though I'd be happy with just different looking dragons). The dragons should live deep underground or in mountains, and (this part is out there) possibly even a cutscene of some sort for the first dragon you awaken. If just deep underground, he should shoot up, leaving a crater to where he once was. If in a mountain, they just fly forward, out of the mountain. Drops from dragons should be very high level and very hard to obtain.

Dragons start out fully buried (deep) and made of stone.  Only players can awaken them by getting close enough that they magically activate them.  And yes, they will leave a crater or cave depending on how they choose to emerge.  It will be difficult to escape in time if you accidentally wake one up... I suspect most players to die if they wake a dragon.

No worries on the loot drops... they will be huge.  Within the mob rules of the game, I will make dragons unkillable.  Huge amount of hitpoints, automatic regeneration of hitpoints, heavy armor over most of their bodies, etc..  Even their eyes will be made of a hard crystal material that might be impervious to certain weapons.  They will not be impossible to kill in the "god mode" sense... there will be no script automatically resurrecting a dragon, for example.  So within that, it is theoretically possible to kill them but even I don't want to know exactly how.  Maybe you have to drop a mountain on them... maybe you have to mess with their support system (I don't want to give away anything there, though).

4.Overall Concept Balancing
Now this is where I really have been thinking about. This section covers overall gameplay mechanics and how to balance those mechanics into a multi-faceted game. First, I'd like to say that the building part of the game is great, but it should not be all or even most of what you do in the game. I'd give it *maybe* a third of the game, if that. It should be used to interact and move the world around you and to allow you to create and build the homes and objects of your dreams, but thats about it (in the RPG mode, at least). The other 2 thirds should be given to these 2 concepts: Mining/Crafting and Questing/Dungeon "Crawling". I strongly suggest that NPCs in towns have randomized quests to do, and maybe even dungeons to do it in. But even without the dungeons, questing gives the player a way to do odd-jobs for money and food, and may even be a part of a line of quests. Food and drink should also be a constant worry for the player (at varying degrees maybe for different difficulties). mining and selling gems, and doing quests should be the main ways players get money for food. If the player has enough land and the right tools, he may start a farm of some kind for food, but this should take at least a little while to create. Bottles could be used to get river water for the drink aspect. Food and drink specifics may also be changed by what race you are.
Mining and crafting should be *almost* as important as it is in minecraft, though the crafting bit would be more for creating gear and potions and RPG stuff. To mine (break) stone and ores, one needs a pickaxe. Not sure about having durability in for equipment, so I'll just say I'm on the fence for that. However, I do think that there should be different levels of pickaxes, and you need stronger ores to make stronger pickaxes to get even stronger ores (like in minecraft). Also, this gives even more choices for the player, since they would have to make the choice between using their more rare ores for a pickaxe to get other better ores, or to stick with your old pickaxe and use that ore for creating any number of other equipment. I hope for at least 8 or 10 different types of metals, some real and some not so real. The very high level ores might be only craftable by master blacksmiths of certain races, and you may need to enlist their help.

I've written so much on this already that I'm not sure I will get too far into it.  Mining will not be an important part of the game any more than hunting rabbits.

Crafting will be way way way more important.  Item crafting will be as flexible (from the engine's perspective) as the object blueprints but way more involved.  I think I've touched on this in other posts.

5.Experience and Levels, ala Might & Magic
This will be my last section for this post tonight, and it won't be big, considering I just thought of it as I was typing earlier. For what I've read that Paul wants, and looking at what I've suggested, I believe the ideal system for experience and levels would be something similar to Might & Magic 6-8's system (as far as getting new levels, what the levels mean and possibly skill levels and how to get them). If you have never played, seen, or heard of Might & Magic, then look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Might_and_Magic_VI:_The_Mandate_of_Heaven for a small description. The main points I wanted to bring over are to have the abilities either already obtained, or gotten through training by an NPC. Once obtained, you can put points you gain through levels into skills of your choosing. Once the correct amount of points are put into a skill, you may find another NPC who will train you to greater degrees of that skill (expert, master, etc.). Every town should have a trainer, who will allow you to advance to the next level once you have enough experience, for a little bit of coin. This RPG concept alone is simple to understand but hard to master, giving the game even more appeal.

Well thats it for now. If you actually read through all of this, congrats and thanks! The things I've suggested here I truly believe would make the final RPG mode of the game fun and engaging, and the idea of a somewhat never-ending-yet-unique adventure would have players coming from everywhere. Things like mobs, rideable creatures, ore types, and magic essence finding will most likely dominate the next installment.
TTFN! (TaTaForNow!)

Current design: no skills, no training.  Your skills should be your own player skills.  Acquire better equipment to get better.

Everything else leads to the "kill 400 badgers" problem and that has far reaching implications.  "Kill 400 badgers" "make 400 swords"... they all ruin the game in about a dozen ways.  Crying player: "Making a sword takes too many steps.  How am I ever going to make 400 of them to achieve my uber-level?!?"  Crying player: "Why can I only sell my swords for a single coin when all of the merchants sell swords for 400 coins?"  and so on.

And tools/equipment can be bought/sold/traded/stolen... which I think might lead to some interesting game play that a mere "Woot! I'm level 40 in rabbit slaying!" wouldn't.
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« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2012, 06:24:10 AM »

P.S.: I hope I didn't sound too harsh or anything.  It wasn't my intent.

Your post was long and I was trying my best to answer as much as possible in a limited amount of time.
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« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2012, 01:55:59 PM »

P.S.: I hope I didn't sound too harsh or anything.  It wasn't my intent.

Your post was long and I was trying my best to answer as much as possible in a limited amount of time.

Nah, you just sounded like you were trying to reason in a developers point of view. No harm done.
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« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2012, 04:59:55 PM »

I'm just glad you actually tried reading lol i thought you were gonna look at it and say "not worth the time".

It's about balance.  If a human wants to use up all of their magic slots to become the equivalent of a reptilian (with all of the same negatives) then I don't see why that's a problem... now they have no more slots to do anything else.  Likewise, if you want to turn your human into an Avian equivalent... which probably takes at least two of your slots and now you can't carry heavy things anymore if you want to fly... I also don't see a problem with that.  Levitation magic will definitely be possible.  You might not have the wings but you will be able to "fly".

If there isn't this parity then it risks letting one race somehow dominate the others.

I have read your posts and see thats the way you want to go. but i think that doing this would make humans the "one race" who "somehow dominate the others". That first part you said, about using all their slots to be a reptilian equivalent, good and bad, i think that is the best way to balance it without making humans "overpowered". Just make sure that they can't just switch between all the races ( and their pros/cons) at will and still have magic slots to boost their abilities further.
Players will have control over their starting equipment and if I include a character back story then they will have control over that, too.  You will never start with a town charter.  That's like giving a warrior a +5 sword and +5 armor to start with.
the town thing was just an idea  Smiley but ok that sounds like a good idea. Im sure you'll balance the starting equipment well.
Dragons start out fully buried (deep) and made of stone.  Only players can awaken them by getting close enough that they magically activate them.  And yes, they will leave a crater or cave depending on how they choose to emerge.  It will be difficult to escape in time if you accidentally wake one up... I suspect most players to die if they wake a dragon.

No worries on the loot drops... they will be huge.  Within the mob rules of the game, I will make dragons unkillable.  Huge amount of hitpoints, automatic regeneration of hitpoints, heavy armor over most of their bodies, etc..  Even their eyes will be made of a hard crystal material that might be impervious to certain weapons.  They will not be impossible to kill in the "god mode" sense... there will be no script automatically resurrecting a dragon, for example.  So within that, it is theoretically possible to kill them but even I don't want to know exactly how.  Maybe you have to drop a mountain on them... maybe you have to mess with their support system (I don't want to give away anything there, though).
Sounds cool! my only comment is to make them extremely rare if they're as tough as i hope they'll be.
I've written so much on this already that I'm not sure I will get too far into it.  Mining will not be an important part of the game any more than hunting rabbits.

Crafting will be way way way more important.  Item crafting will be as flexible (from the engine's perspective) as the object blueprints but way more involved.  I think I've touched on this in other posts.
I haven't seen those posts and i don't have the time to dig through to find them, but ok I'll eagerly await your plans.
Current design: no skills, no training.  Your skills should be your own player skills.  Acquire better equipment to get better.

Everything else leads to the "kill 400 badgers" problem and that has far reaching implications.  "Kill 400 badgers" "make 400 swords"... they all ruin the game in about a dozen ways.  Crying player: "Making a sword takes too many steps.  How am I ever going to make 400 of them to achieve my uber-level?!?"  Crying player: "Why can I only sell my swords for a single coin when all of the merchants sell swords for 400 coins?"  and so on.

And tools/equipment can be bought/sold/traded/stolen... which I think might lead to some interesting game play that a mere "Woot! I'm level 40 in rabbit slaying!" wouldn't.
aha! but you're thinking of the classic skyrim "ok, I'll cast this weak Destruction spell for 2 hours for a level up!". the beauty of the system i suggested is their are many skills that really only require level ups on your characters side, meaning you shouldn't "grind" for levels, but rather you get experience by going out and playing the game! Hopefully the randomization of such a game would make grinding impractical. And after that, you can put points in skills and get better as you play the game, making your character well-earned. Maybe I'm going a little hardcore RPG on this (i get like that), so maybe that can be a hardcore rpg setting. But i digress, I do like your idea of the "bought/sold/traded/stolen" thing for items, that will be interesting indeed! And honestly, I'm not sure what you mean by "Your skills should be your own player skills." sounds to me like i can run out and get an uber-sword from the beginning.
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« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2012, 06:00:00 PM »

And honestly, I'm not sure what you mean by "Your skills should be your own player skills." sounds to me like i can run out and get an uber-sword from the beginning.

I mean that where possible, I will incorporate a game mechanic in the place of a skill roll.  It is possible that you could run out and get an uber-sword from the beginning if you were _extremely_ lucky.  Say, you just happened to come upon loot that no one picked up.  I think it's so impossibly unlikely that I don't really worry about it.  And even in the case where you do get that lucky, you will forever have the decision on whether you scrap the sword to build a better life for yourself (the cash will be potentially worth more to you at that stage of the game) or hold onto it and struggle with other things.

It also may be that powering an uber-sword requires a magic component in your body so that it doesn't drain your life energy away so fast that you can basically never use it.  Last thing you want is your uber-sword dealing you damage with every hit (attack or parry) just because your your magic points have started pulling from your life force.

The thing I like about trading physical goods for arbitrary experience points is that it potentially leads to more questing.  If they way to make your character better is to get the uber-sword and the only way to get it is to make one or buy one from the one blacksmith who sells it.  Then you either spend a bunch of game time learning how to craft the uber-sword, acquire the rate ingredients, etc... or you have to deal with the one blacksmith.  And maybe he only sells it to people he likes and so you have to do him a bunch of favors or whatever... in addition to acquire some of the ingredients for him.

I do think there will be some "learning" with a new tool or piece of equipment.  Let's say you manage to get an upgraded spokeshave but you otherwise already know how to make bows... the next bow you make will have a pretty large chance of breaking or turning out horrible.  The second one will turn out ok but take a long time to make.  By the third one, you pretty much understand the tool and can make whatever.  The percentage of failure and length of time could both be variable based on how far the tool has been upgraded.  This is sort of an exaggerated version of my own experience with picking up new woodworking tools and I think it fits well enough to make sense and gives a nice little friction to upgrades.
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« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2012, 06:13:00 PM »

hmm.. Paul, maybe if you were to slightly train people in your ability, you may get more time to development Wink or it may be more complicated or simple - people who have been on the forums for a while may get a hang on how to help, because of posts similar to the ones people are posting.
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« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2012, 06:28:34 PM »

hmm.. Paul, maybe if you were to slightly train people in your ability, you may get more time to development Wink or it may be more complicated or simple - people who have been on the forums for a while may get a hang on how to help, because of posts similar to the ones people are posting.

My time to develop the game is limited only by my need to feed, clothe, and house my family. Smiley  Oh, and sleep.
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« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2012, 06:40:40 PM »

hmm.. Paul, maybe if you were to slightly train people in your ability, you may get more time to development Wink or it may be more complicated or simple - people who have been on the forums for a while may get a hang on how to help, because of posts similar to the ones people are posting.

My time to develop the game is limited only by my need to feed, clothe, and house my family. Smiley  Oh, and sleep.

What about work?
i understand that you work plenty on mythruna, but don't devote too much time into it. right now i am trying to read and understand. i got a whole list of things to learn  Shocked

all that, and that is just a section of a section!!!!
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« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2012, 07:54:24 PM »

Sounds good and up to caliber. sooo... there will be a focus on quests Smiley
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« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2012, 08:12:18 PM »

hmm.. Paul, maybe if you were to slightly train people in your ability, you may get more time to development Wink or it may be more complicated or simple - people who have been on the forums for a while may get a hang on how to help, because of posts similar to the ones people are posting.

My time to develop the game is limited only by my need to feed, clothe, and house my family. Smiley  Oh, and sleep.

What about work?
i understand that you work plenty on mythruna, but don't devote too much time into it. right now i am trying to read and understand. i got a whole list of things to learn  Shocked

The "day job" work is what I do to feed, clothe, and house my family.  I spend 20+ hours a week on Mythruna on average but it hasn't even covered its own expenses yet.
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« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2012, 08:14:47 PM »

Sounds good and up to caliber. sooo... there will be a focus on quests Smiley

Quests that the setting naturally generates, yes.
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« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2012, 08:27:35 PM »

any quests is just another way mythruna will stand out of the crowd. good job! You sound like you have some big plans for the money system.
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