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Title: Random town names... Post by: pspeed on September 01, 2012, 03:33:50 PM On first blush, one might think this is a pretty simple problem. Random name generators are numerous, after all.
The issue comes in how Mythruna worlds are generated. Ideally, if you and I pick the same seed then we should get the same starting world... right down to the towns, etc.. If we both play seed 42 and talk about some town "Shadowcastle" then we should be talking about the same town. At least that has been my goal all along. This works well for the terrain and related data because these are based on fractals that have a seed value. Change the seed, you get a different fractal. Use the same seed you get the same "random" fractal every time. Even the tree and flora placement is predictable because they use a combined local seed that is predictable from one world to the next. Names are harder. The same random approach would easily lead to neighboring towns having the same or extremely similar names. If you are picking random names out of a hat, you run the risk of picking the same name twice. It's inevitable... and common enough that it has actually happened in my testing. (My current test world has two Icestons right next to each other.) And I can't just check for duplicates because that would mean that town names are dependent on the order you visit the world. So in the seed 42 example, if I head west and encounter Iceston and you head east and encounter a different Iceston... then deduping would mean we no longer have the same town names in our world (my version Iceston will be called something different in your world.) This is why I have stubbed in a fairly stupid random name generator so far. It had a list of 40-50 town names and just randomly picked one. However, to do anything clever I had to write my own... so I did. Here are 100 random town names from the generator: Bywyvern Fairmere Shadebrook Whiterose Lynbury Erishaw Mossfield Llanburgh Bluecrystal Bradcaster Havenwyn Lochport Maplegold Deepwheat Polwater Magesummer Aberden Swynsummer Rocklake Roseworth Clearbrook Winterbrook Barrowshade Gilllake Fayloch Westermarble Aberness Strongdeer Wyvernwind Newstoke Snowmeadow Lyngfog Tillysage Fallcrystal Bradcaster Merrowfoss Pytmoor Faywheat Clearhollow Wheatmarsh Southcester Castlekeep Valfog Sudforth Aberton Kinmere Polstoke Tillyspring Morbury Norflower Whitedragon Ghyllspring Elfglyn Coldedge Stanworth Moormarsh Tillykael Dellbury Newchester Glyncaster Belspell Wyvernwood Shoreley Marshsage Fieldwater Glynghyll Castlewych Waterton Fallbeech Hedgeloch Marshdale Fairbeech Byriver Westerburn Meadowwick Llanwater Northbay Fieldloch Lyngfay Fairice Bushdale Starrythorp Ashmeadow Lhanmere Freyport Valborough Wellhythe Swynweald Ostton Fieldcaster Pytwich Aldthwaite Shadowway Mapleport Violetberg Shadeden Ostgill Janwych Elfmist Marshwardine This pieces names together from stems which should give me a little more flexibility. (Interestingly, many of the stems are derived from actual town word stems like on here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_generic_forms_in_place_names_in_the_United_Kingdom_and_Ireland and here: http://www.englishplacenames.co.uk/ ...and since these stems have actual meanings it might one day be possible to have names generate that actually match the town... that would actually solve my problem but is too complicated for today) Anyway, given how this algorithm works, I believe I can use location as an input in such a way to both prevent duplicates and avoid nearby towns always having similar stems. (ie: Goldwich, Goldchester, Goldwyn... gee, we must be in the 'gold' area... lame.) We'll see how it goes but I liked the names I was getting so I thought I would post at least that much progress. This weekend is all about fixing my town placement and town naming to be predictable and repeatable for a world seed. Both of my previous approaches changed depending on the order you visited the world. Title: Re: Random town names... Post by: pspeed on September 01, 2012, 05:10:09 PM So, one nice thing about a fractal is that given some x,y coordinate you can get a value back. If the seed is the same then the same x,y in will produce the same output. This is a nice property to have.
Along those same lines, I seem to have successfully created a name generator that works in the same way. Given a particular seed, x,y inputs will produce output... the same seed + x + y will produce the same name... but otherwise the names are basically random. Currently, I haven't implement any intelligence with how it combines the stems so you will get things like "Pineelf"... where one of the 'e's can probably be removed and it's entirely possible to get something like "Mossmoss" (in fact it happens first thing for seed 101 below). I will fix these later. For fun, here are some examples... Code: Seed 0: Title: Re: Random town names... Post by: pspeed on September 01, 2012, 05:25:31 PM I noticed some repetition of stems in the above and I was able to remove it.
So here are 100 names for each of the seeds shown above. More random than before... at least as far as I've seen this time. :) Code: Seed:0 Title: Re: Random town names... Post by: The Chosen One on September 01, 2012, 08:19:33 PM Hah, that's actually how I plan to have 'random' town names for my game...
Title: Re: Random town names... Post by: pspeed on September 01, 2012, 08:35:10 PM Hah, that's actually how I plan to have 'random' town names for my game... The stem approach is pretty common. The trick is making it reproducible. :) Title: Re: Random town names... Post by: Michael on September 02, 2012, 10:58:22 AM Hah, that's actually how I plan to have 'random' town names for my game... The stem approach is pretty common. The trick is making it reproducible. :) so saying, for generating easy pronounceable name generators, when a name is created that it makes a file or adds a file to a folder or to another file(s) so the names are not generated again? PS: woo... i got my time lock off :) Title: Re: Random town names... Post by: pspeed on September 02, 2012, 11:13:43 AM Hah, that's actually how I plan to have 'random' town names for my game... The stem approach is pretty common. The trick is making it reproducible. :) so saying, for generating easy pronounceable name generators, when a name is created that it makes a file or adds a file to a folder or to another file(s) so the names are not generated again? PS: woo... i got my time lock off :) What I'm saying is that if you play the single player game and I play the single player game and we are both using the same world seeds then we should both see the same random town names. Title: Re: Random town names... Post by: Michael on September 02, 2012, 11:28:59 AM ok, just wanted to understand what was happening at the moment.
Title: Re: Random town names... Post by: pspeed on September 02, 2012, 12:54:28 PM ok, just wanted to understand what was happening at the moment. Yeah, didn't mean to sound snippy... just trying to explain it in a different way that made sense. Title: Re: Random town names... Post by: The Chosen One on September 08, 2012, 10:01:32 AM I actually just started working on the world generation for my project, getting it to 'reproduce' doesn't seem that hard to me. Maybe I'm just being dumb.
What I've done is simply lay out two huge arrays. One dedicated to 'prefixes' and the other to 'suffixes'. I have it so that this function takes in two arguments one for the prefix and the other for the suffix. I'm really terrible at explaining things so I'll just give you an example. Let's say this is how we have our arrays setup, Prefix[1] = Apples! Prefix[2] = Bananas! Prefix[3] = Watermelon! Suffix [1] = Cats! Suffix [2] = Dogs! Suffix [3] = Birds! Let's say this is called, TownGen::GenTown(1,1) Then the 'name' would be Apples Cats, If TownGen::GenTown() is called then a seed would be then randomly assigned. Sorry for my terrible explanation, I'm running on 2 hours of sleep. I hope it's enough for you to understand. Title: Re: Random town names... Post by: pspeed on September 08, 2012, 10:29:36 AM I actually just started working on the world generation for my project, getting it to 'reproduce' doesn't seem that hard to me. Maybe I'm just being dumb. What I've done is simply lay out two huge arrays. One dedicated to 'prefixes' and the other to 'suffixes'. I have it so that this function takes in two arguments one for the prefix and the other for the suffix. I'm really terrible at explaining things so I'll just give you an example. Let's say this is how we have our arrays setup, Prefix[1] = Apples! Prefix[2] = Bananas! Prefix[3] = Watermelon! Suffix [1] = Cats! Suffix [2] = Dogs! Suffix [3] = Birds! Let's say this is called, TownGen::GenTown(1,1) Then the 'name' would be Apples Cats, If TownGen::GenTown() is called then a seed would be then randomly assigned. Sorry for my terrible explanation, I'm running on 2 hours of sleep. I hope it's enough for you to understand. In Mythruna's case, the world keeps going in all directions. If you pick a particular world seed and travel for 50 miles east and I pick the same world seed and travel for 50 miles east then we should reach the same town... same name, same population, etc.. Generally this sort of thing is done by using a seed that is based on location. So for a given section of the world you use a particular set of seeds, perhaps adjusted by the global seed. This works fine for stuff that is completely random but it does not work so well if you want to ensure that your town names don't repeat if possible. Otherwise, it's possible for two different "Apples! Cats!" to be right next to each other. One logical solution is to keep track of what names you've already used and then just not use them again... but then you end up with a different problem. If I visit "Apples! Cats!" (1) first and you visit "Apples! Cats!" (2) first then now we have different worlds... because my "Apples! Cats!" (2) is called something else and your "Apples! Cats!" one is called something else. So the trick isn't "reproducibility". The trick isn't "random". And the trick isn't "unique". The trick is names that are unique and reproducibly random. Title: Re: Random town names... Post by: FutureB on September 08, 2012, 04:29:25 PM Dam paul that is a epic idea ahah im imagining playing on 50 difernt skyrim maps that never end are look blocky ;p
Title: Re: Random town names... Post by: Michael on September 08, 2012, 04:36:20 PM Dam paul that is a epic idea ahah im imagining playing on 50 difernt skyrim maps that never end are look blocky ;p 1) are cuss words allowed? 2) Is the first word supposed to be a cuss word? 3) you mis-spelled the "D" word :P Title: Re: Random town names... Post by: FutureB on September 09, 2012, 02:08:22 AM Sorry i didnt think dam was to offensive, tbh i think my avatars alot more disturbing than that post ;p
Title: Re: Random town names... Post by: pspeed on September 09, 2012, 02:20:57 AM Sorry i didnt think dam was to offensive, tbh i think my avatars alot more disturbing than that post ;p Well, dams block rivers... so of course that isn't offensive. ;) On the other hand, part of being a good internet citizen is also trying not to be too easily offended. General internet guidelines: If the most offensive try to be less so and the most easily offended try to ignore more then perhaps we can all meet happily in the middle. After all, nearly everything is offensive to someone. Title: Re: Random town names... Post by: Michael on September 09, 2012, 06:07:24 AM Sorry i didnt think dam was to offensive, tbh i think my avatars alot more disturbing than that post ;p Well, dams block rivers... so of course that isn't offensive. ;) On the other hand, part of being a good internet citizen is also trying not to be too easily offended. General internet guidelines: If the most offensive try to be less so and the most easily offended try to ignore more then perhaps we can all meet happily in the middle. After all, nearly everything is offensive to someone. Im confused, who was offended? Title: Re: Random town names... Post by: FutureB on September 09, 2012, 07:23:14 AM Dam paul that is a epic idea ahah im imagining playing on 50 difernt skyrim maps that never end are look blocky ;p 1) are cuss words allowed? 2) Is the first word supposed to be a cuss word? 3) you mis-spelled the "D" word :P Title: Re: Random town names... Post by: Michael on September 09, 2012, 07:37:56 AM Nah, I hear plenty of words 8) and you have to try hard to offend me!
Title: Re: Random town names... Post by: FutureB on September 09, 2012, 02:38:56 PM Then why did you bring it up.... lool ;p
Title: Re: Random town names... Post by: Michael on September 09, 2012, 03:01:29 PM Then why did you bring it up.... lool ;p You said "Dam" so i was just wondering-- lets get back on topic shall we? Title: Re: Random town names... Post by: caesar on September 10, 2012, 02:35:29 AM Hey Paul,
please keep in mind that the towns of the different races should have some differences. E.g. the reptilians could always have townnames with at least one "-" like 'Brak-Al' or 'Dsah-Gnod-Ty'. So you would always know what race has founded that town. And it would make them one of a kind. I personally think it would be strange to have the same name for towns of different races. Title: Re: Random town names... Post by: pspeed on September 10, 2012, 06:30:11 AM Hey Paul, please keep in mind that the towns of the different races should have some differences. E.g. the reptilians could always have townnames with at least one "-" like 'Brak-Al' or 'Dsah-Gnod-Ty'. So you would always know what race has founded that town. And it would make them one of a kind. I personally think it would be strange to have the same name for towns of different races. Yes, I do plan to have different names for different races... but right now I'm concentrating on just human. Title: Re: Random town names... Post by: ahmadsal on September 11, 2012, 09:43:32 PM Okay, I don't want to make your job harder by being picky, but should you focus on the stems to make sure they have context in Mythruna.
For example, I found "elf" and "fox". We understand but I doubt you will have foxes and I don't remember if elves are on your races list. Also, "fog" and "mist". I don't think you are planning to implement both of these, since they are each almost the same thing. I don't think you will refer to mist so specifically as the waterfall mist. There are probably way more examples. I just found a few in a second glance. Also, trick town "southsummer" or "summersouth", can't remember. How exactly is a town southern if you can walk infinitely south? Just a bit of aesthetic annoyance from here. I know you probably don't care right now because you are just trying to get it to work but I couldn't stop myself. edit>> forgot the most obvious example. Moormarsh. You have to make marshes and moor is a specific group of people in northern africa/iberia. I know you said you will try to work on context later, I'm just saying you should redo the ambiguous names in mythruna's world. Title: Re: Random town names... Post by: pspeed on September 11, 2012, 11:07:16 PM Okay, I don't want to make your job harder by being picky, but should you focus on the stems to make sure they have context in Mythruna. For example, I found "elf" and "fox". We understand but I doubt you will have foxes and I don't remember if elves are on your races list. Also, "fog" and "mist". I don't think you are planning to implement both of these, since they are each almost the same thing. I don't think you will refer to mist so specifically as the waterfall mist. There are probably way more examples. I just found a few in a second glance. Also, trick town "southsummer" or "summersouth", can't remember. How exactly is a town southern if you can walk infinitely south? Just a bit of aesthetic annoyance from here. I know you probably don't care right now because you are just trying to get it to work but I couldn't stop myself. edit>> forgot the most obvious example. Moormarsh. You have to make marshes and moor is a specific group of people in northern africa/iberia. I know you said you will try to work on context later, I'm just saying you should redo the ambiguous names in mythruna's world. This last bit is a bit wrong. The Moors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors) are a people... the moors (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/moor) are a kind of boggy swamp land... featured prominently in The Hound of the Baskervilles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hound_of_the_Baskervilles) The names are fine for now. Eventually I'd like to tie stems to features of the land so that you don't end up with "XXXCoast" in the middle of a large land mass or desert. Though in any case, all oddities can usually be explained with a little imagination. Perhaps "XXXCoast" is a joke or maybe there was water there once. Naming something the opposite of what it is has a long history. Also, perhaps "Southsummer" is because there used to be a "Northsummer" and a "Southsummer" a hundred years ago but one is gone now. After all, north of the area I live in has all kinds of Scottish town names and we are nowhere near that part of the world. Names are funny. I'd rather have a few "WTF?" moments than have all of the names sounding the same. I plan to have all kinds of animals but I will augment the list with appropriate ones eventually. Where possible, I'm trying to come up with unique animals and I'm not sure if I will have a fox... though my creature notes do have a fox-like creature that I haven't named yet. There were also going to be "wols" which are like lesser wolves that might take the place of a fox. Title: Re: Random town names... Post by: ahmadsal on September 15, 2012, 09:14:58 PM True. Cool info on the Moors. I guess you can see why I thought they were an actual people but slang has ways of messing up meaning. I'm with you on the not naming towns the same type of thing. Especially in games it makes it seem unoriginal and lame in that aspect. Nice to see that you are working out every detail.
Title: Re: Random town names... Post by: belgariad87 on September 16, 2012, 07:55:26 AM This last bit is a bit wrong. The Moors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors) are a people... the moors (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/moor) are a kind of boggy swamp land... featured prominently in The Hound of the Baskervilles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hound_of_the_Baskervilles) Town names will be pretty cool either way. As for Animals/Creatures, theres a whole different ball game. I actually have been thinking about starting another "brainstorm" session just on all types of appropriate animal and monsters to put into the game... Assuming of course that a game with magic will have mythical monsters to fight (more than just dragons). I wasn't sure if you were going to separate them in some way, so that it is fairly obvious where the "animal" category is and the "monster" category is (like uses for their drops or something.)The names are fine for now. Eventually I'd like to tie stems to features of the land so that you don't end up with "XXXCoast" in the middle of a large land mass or desert. Though in any case, all oddities can usually be explained with a little imagination. Perhaps "XXXCoast" is a joke or maybe there was water there once. Naming something the opposite of what it is has a long history. Also, perhaps "Southsummer" is because there used to be a "Northsummer" and a "Southsummer" a hundred years ago but one is gone now. After all, north of the area I live in has all kinds of Scottish town names and we are nowhere near that part of the world. Names are funny. I'd rather have a few "WTF?" moments than have all of the names sounding the same. I plan to have all kinds of animals but I will augment the list with appropriate ones eventually. Where possible, I'm trying to come up with unique animals and I'm not sure if I will have a fox... though my creature notes do have a fox-like creature that I haven't named yet. There were also going to be "wols" which are like lesser wolves that might take the place of a fox. Title: Re: Random town names... Post by: pspeed on September 16, 2012, 09:06:49 AM Like in real life, in the game the line between animal and monster will not be so clear. Is a wolf a monster or an animal?
From an AI perspective, there will be predators and prey... but even that isn't so clear because there are plenty of "predators" that would steer clear of humans. Anyway, where ever possible I will try to create unique but familiar animals. So I may not have wolves exactly but something similar enough to them that you'd know how they might act. For example, if you see a large cow-sized creature covered in wool you can be pretty sure it's not going to come eat you... no matter how big its horns are. Title: Re: Random town names... Post by: Michael on September 16, 2012, 10:10:46 AM Like in real life, in the game the line between animal and monster will not be so clear. Is a wolf a monster or an animal? From an AI perspective, there will be predators and prey... but even that isn't so clear because there are plenty of "predators" that would steer clear of humans. Anyway, where ever possible I will try to create unique but familiar animals. So I may not have wolves exactly but something similar enough to them that you'd know how they might act. For example, if you see a large cow-sized creature covered in wool you can be pretty sure it's not going to come eat you... no matter how big its horns are. Wolf is both, how about neutral? or if a wolf is added, allow if bothered, or you get too close it will go after you. Title: Re: Random town names... Post by: Iggyjeckel on September 16, 2012, 10:30:52 AM Not all "monster" need to be seen as aggressive, for instance lets say ent (tree people)
To elves ents may be passive, allowing a long lasting friendship be born. But to, lets say humans, they may not get along due to the expansive nature of humans. Title: Re: Random town names... Post by: pspeed on September 16, 2012, 12:14:45 PM Not all "monster" need to be seen as aggressive, for instance lets say ent (tree people) To elves ents may be passive, allowing a long lasting friendship be born. But to, lets say humans, they may not get along due to the expansive nature of humans. I think nearly everything can/will be aggressive under the right circumstances. If an elf starts burning down other ents then I think they should probably become hostile at that point. I'm hoping to avoid obvious "factions" as it's a crutch for getting around more detailed relationships between things. I'm hoping to model something closer to those relationships. So if the town folk come rushing to your aid in some fight it will be some combination of how much they like you and how capable they feel... and not because they are in a "friendly" faction. I hope I'm making sense. I'm trying to break the mold in a few places and this is one of them. Title: Re: Random town names... Post by: Iggyjeckel on September 16, 2012, 01:28:59 PM I understand what your trying to say, I was just using that stuff as an example to show that just because its not an animal doesnt mean its something that cant co-exist.
I like the idea of even if its supposed to be a natural enemy, doesnt mean there isnt an odd pair out of the bunch. Just imagine an avian/drawf hybrid Title: Re: Random town names... Post by: belgariad87 on September 16, 2012, 04:59:52 PM woah this is not the direction i had anticipated. while where you guys were goin is great immersion-wise, i meant quantity, like big basilisks, aquatic naga, fire sprites, griffins, and things of that nature. keeping things intertwined is good, but enemy diversity is both appealing and fun.
Title: Re: Random town names... Post by: Iggyjeckel on September 16, 2012, 05:24:53 PM Had an idea, not worth its own thread but goes with the new topic of this post lol
What about creating a single "blight walker" a being of immense power who brings death and famine to all who happen to be in his path. He would wander the world, never stopping and whetever he goes plauges show up. If he goes near crops they would wither, animals become sick and diseased (could make zombie cow creatures lol jk) and he just generally causes problems Title: Re: Random town names... Post by: pspeed on September 16, 2012, 09:02:44 PM Had an idea, not worth its own thread but goes with the new topic of this post lol What about creating a single "blight walker" a being of immense power who brings death and famine to all who happen to be in his path. He would wander the world, never stopping and whetever he goes plauges show up. If he goes near crops they would wither, animals become sick and diseased (could make zombie cow creatures lol jk) and he just generally causes problems Trust me that dragons will fit this. There are aspects to them that I have not described yet. Also, there is a race called "the whispers" by the populace... that, I mean, there is no eighth race. Pay no attention to me. ;) Title: Re: Random town names... Post by: Iggyjeckel on September 16, 2012, 09:39:22 PM Why does it seem like every cool idea that ive saved in my head for years, you have already thought of, are you in my head?
Title: Re: Random town names... Post by: pspeed on September 16, 2012, 09:44:51 PM Why does it seem like every cool idea that ive saved in my head for years, you have already thought of, are you in my head? I've been thinking about some kind of super-rpg for almost 30 years. There are bound to be lots of similar ideas rambling around up there in my grey matter. :) Title: Re: Random town names... Post by: Iggyjeckel on September 16, 2012, 11:00:21 PM Oh I meant to say my idea on how to fix the name probem. I had to create a blackjack game, and obviously cant have multiple cards so I created an array and when one card was pulled I moved that card to the last spot in the array and moved the last card in the card pulled place, I simply made the array one value smaller "dropping" the card used. Would that help you in any way, im sure you thought of that though
Title: Re: Random town names... Post by: pspeed on September 16, 2012, 11:05:28 PM Oh I meant to say my idea on how to fix the name probem. I had to create a blackjack game, and obviously cant have multiple cards so I created an array and when one card was pulled I moved that card to the last spot in the array and moved the last card in the card pulled place, I simply made the array one value smaller "dropping" the card used. Would that help you in any way, im sure you thought of that though The problem comes (as stated above) if we visit the world in a different order. If you visit towns A, B, C and I visit towns A, C, B... and B and C were going to try to use the same name then we no longer have the same name for B and C. Anyway, the problem is already solved. The raw solution is pretty simple. Keeping nearby towns from having similar names or patterns was the tricky part. ie: it would look strange if the first 5 towns you visited heading east all started with the letter 'A'. Title: Re: Random town names... Post by: Iggyjeckel on September 16, 2012, 11:11:27 PM Oh, sorry :) well ill wait till I can prove I can be semi useful since paypal doesnt like me yet
Title: Re: Random town names... Post by: belgariad87 on September 17, 2012, 04:13:48 AM Glad to hear things are going along.
Title: Re: Random town names... Post by: Moonkey on September 17, 2012, 10:47:08 PM It makes me jealous that Paul gets to see villagers gather courage or run away when he gets working dragons. *Sniff* If I spot a dragon: HEAD TO THE NEAREST CAVE. Have you though of cave creatures yet? :)
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