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[Rayblon]

So I played Wurm Online for the first time in years... and it had a lovely tutorial island that inundated you with notifications trying to explain how to play the game. Myself, being a lazy and impatient game-goer, made a beeline for the portal into the actual game. The game wasn't intuitive. Like, at all. There were dozens of keybinds, supposedly over 130 skills, and a tool system that I had no clue how to use. Putting an axe in your hand and clicking wasn't good enough, and the contextual menu had no options for cutting down a tree or digging when I took my shovel out. That is not to say it's a bad game... there was just a learning cliff for about 95% of the content. Unlike Minecraft, experimentation was fruitless because even the simple interactions were too complex for guesswork to help you

There was so much information to take up at once and the tutorial was so poorly orchestrated that I ended up roaming the lands completely clueless. I gave up and quit after a few hours; playing the game became more taxing than enjoyable rather quickly. So Paul... How do you plan to keep your own, diverse interfaces intuitive and accessible? I know you have a more physical interface planned for inventory management, but what of things like crafting or cooking? How will those interfaces play out? Will they even have interfaces? For instance, would a cooking pot have a menu to place ingredients in, or will you simply use items directly on the cooking pot to add ingredients?

[pspeed]

Did you ever figure any of it out?  Like using the axe?  I'm curious.

I struggle with how to solve this problem, myself.  In the end, crafting will be a choice that you can ignore.  So I hope that skill acquisition provides enough of a stepped tutorial that by that point your are ready to listen/watch/whatever.

I also hope that having a few sets of fixed actions for held items will help... and that you learn those as you go.  Also, tools like swords, shovels, pick-axes, etc. will have default modes for click.  Clicking will run a default action that doesn't give you much control but hopefully hints at how you'd drag the object to make the right motions to get control.  And for really repetitive things like digging with a pick-axe, you may almost always opt for the one-click mode.

And yeah, part of cooking will be opening the pots inventory and sticking stuff into it.  Cooking will be a tricky one because there is no 'physical' "good taste" that can be easily modeled.  If I end up having to fall back on preset recipes then I will gear the cooking interface to better support that.

I've been playing a lot (too much) of Final Fantasy 14 lately.  It's giving me lots of ideas on good/bad stuff.  The HUD in that game is simply overwhelming.  I find it quite interesting how pervasive the 'XP problem' is because if you trace things back they almost always come back to XP.  An XP-less game will be a very grand experiment.

[Rayblon]

Did you ever figure any of it out?  Like using the axe?  I'm curious.

I struggle with how to solve this problem, myself.  In the end, crafting will be a choice that you can ignore.  So I hope that skill acquisition provides enough of a stepped tutorial that by that point your are ready to listen/watch/whatever.

I also hope that having a few sets of fixed actions for held items will help... and that you learn those as you go.  Also, tools like swords, shovels, pick-axes, etc. will have default modes for click.  Clicking will run a default action that doesn't give you much control but hopefully hints at how you'd drag the object to make the right motions to get control.  And for really repetitive things like digging with a pick-axe, you may almost always opt for the one-click mode.

And yeah, part of cooking will be opening the pots inventory and sticking stuff into it.  Cooking will be a tricky one because there is no 'physical' "good taste" that can be easily modeled.  If I end up having to fall back on preset recipes then I will gear the cooking interface to better support that.

I've been playing a lot (too much) of Final Fantasy 14 lately.  It's giving me lots of ideas on good/bad stuff.  The HUD in that game is simply overwhelming.  I find it quite interesting how pervasive the 'XP problem' is because if you trace things back they almost always come back to XP.  An XP-less game will be a very grand experiment.

I never did manage to figure out the axe or any tool, no. Despite it literally being in my hand, the art of woodcutting completely eluded me. I was absolutely inundated with HUD windows and not a single one of them let me use the axe. There were attack buttons, which did nothing, there was a keybind for digging, mining, etc, but they never worked either.

Oh and in Wurm... Oh wow. Literally EVERYTHING you do has XP tied to it. It's confusing because you're immediately exposed to dozens of skills in your hud, with no cushion at all.

For the physical modelling in the cooking, you'd pretty much beat every other game out if you actually model the ingredients. In the pot, I suspect alpha-channeled "ingredient layers" might suffice. On top of that, there could be different levels for each ingredient layer so adding tons of potatoes is tangible in the cooking pot. Though, the entire process will be difficult to model well because of sheer volume of different ingredients and the way they're prepared before going in.. Chopping up the ingredients, putting them in a pot, and flourishing the bowl of food with grilled leeks or something all should be represented, and that can be hard to do. That's before even getting into the smell interface and how that will be affected by food. It would be hard to model, but doing it right for the first time in the industry would be appreciated.

I remember beta testing for FF XIV, heh heh. It was an utter trainwreck back then. There was a little bit of cringe with the interface, but it was still better than Wurm. I could get into the basics of the game very easily, despite the game actually being terrible at the time.

[pspeed]

http://www.wurmpedia.com/index.php/Woodcutting

...after three or four clickings around.  Still nothing tells you immediately how to use the tool itself, I guess.

I'm definitely not making that game.

It's so plain to me that XP-based games devolve into trading my time for XP doing stupidly repetitive tasks.  I spent like 1.5 hours in FFXIV fishing tonight... pretty much standing on a beach and hitting two buttons.  I'm nearly a level 20 fisherman now.  Personally, I'd rather only catch fish if I needed them for something (which was why I became a fisherman because I needed some coral for a leatherworking item).  But to 'catch' the coral, I had to work up to level 10 by repeatedly catching the same things and/or doing levequests which essentially had me catching certain numbers of the same things.

I mean, I kind of don't blame them.  When your world is limited to only the content you put into it then you have to make the space matter more.  You can't just say "I'm bored here" and walk an hour in one direction to discover totally new stuff.

[Rayblon]

http://www.wurmpedia.com/index.php/Woodcutting

...after three or four clickings around.  Still nothing tells you immediately how to use the tool itself, I guess.

I'm definitely not making that game.

It's so plain to me that XP-based games devolve into trading my time for XP doing stupidly repetitive tasks.  I spent like 1.5 hours in FFXIV fishing tonight... pretty much standing on a beach and hitting two buttons.  I'm nearly a level 20 fisherman now.  Personally, I'd rather only catch fish if I needed them for something (which was why I became a fisherman because I needed some coral for a leatherworking item).  But to 'catch' the coral, I had to work up to level 10 by repeatedly catching the same things and/or doing levequests which essentially had me catching certain numbers of the same things.

I mean, I kind of don't blame them.  When your world is limited to only the content you put into it then you have to make the space matter more.  You can't just say "I'm bored here" and walk an hour in one direction to discover totally new stuff.

Well, if they have to incentivize you to do X by forcing your hand through XP, then they didn't design it well. If it's not fun, you don't implement it in the game. That's how I see it, anyway. There are plenty of games that do fishing very well, actually. LoZ: TP, for instance, had a pretty responsive fishing system that I enjoyed for a good few hours(long enough to get the hylian loach, at least). Even animal crossing did fishing pretty well despite oversimplifying it a bit. Real life Enjoyable fishing is definitely NOT pressing two buttons.

I kinda wished I could figure out the game, just to see the actually well executed stuff.

[pspeed]

Well, if they have to incentivize you to do X by forcing your hand through XP, then they didn't design it well. If it's not fun, you don't implement it in the game. That's how I see it, anyway. There are plenty of games that do fishing very well, actually. LoZ: TP, for instance, had a pretty responsive fishing system that I enjoyed for a good few hours(long enough to get the hylian loach, at least). Even animal crossing did fishing pretty well despite oversimplifying it a bit. Real life Enjoyable fishing is definitely NOT pressing two buttons.

Real life fishing is a whole lot of standing around.  They got that right.

It's more than just hitting two buttons... but that's just the mechanic.  You also have to find the right places to fish for certain types of fish.  Use different baits in fresh water versus salt water, etc..  There is only so much they can do with a multiplayer game that doesn't support 'twitch' style actions.  I mean, even combat is essentially just clicking once you boil it down to its basics.

The tyranny of XP affects all XP-based games on some level.  There is always some point where you are doing something to add XP that you wouldn't have otherwise done.  Even good games like Fallout 3 fall into this trap from time to time.  There's grinding and there are the three or four different 'quest tropes' (deliver this package, get me 3 of these, etc.).

In fact, when trying to think of a game where I never felt I had to grind, I kept thinking of games and then remembering that they had no real XP.  The Tomb Raider from 2013 might be the best example of this because there was character building but there wasn't XP that I recall.  At least not that I recall... which already means something.  I know you picked up new materials to enhance your weapons and stuff.  There might have been a skill tree, also.  I never once remember killing things just to bump a stat, though.

Anyway, an MMORPG based on a limited world only has so much it can do.  It has to give people things to do while they wait for their friends to arrive... or give them opportunities to meet new folks, etc... and it has a strictly finite universe within which to do that.  Thus, grinding.

[Rayblon]

Real life fishing is a whole lot of standing around.  They got that right.

It's more than just hitting two buttons... but that's just the mechanic.  You also have to find the right places to fish for certain types of fish.  Use different baits in fresh water versus salt water, etc..  There is only so much they can do with a multiplayer game that doesn't support 'twitch' style actions.  I mean, even combat is essentially just clicking once you boil it down to its basics.

The tyranny of XP affects all XP-based games on some level.  There is always some point where you are doing something to add XP that you wouldn't have otherwise done.  Even good games like Fallout 3 fall into this trap from time to time.  There's grinding and there are the three or four different 'quest tropes' (deliver this package, get me 3 of these, etc.).

In fact, when trying to think of a game where I never felt I had to grind, I kept thinking of games and then remembering that they had no real XP.  The Tomb Raider from 2013 might be the best example of this because there was character building but there wasn't XP that I recall.  At least not that I recall... which already means something.  I know you picked up new materials to enhance your weapons and stuff.  There might have been a skill tree, also.  I never once remember killing things just to bump a stat, though.

Anyway, an MMORPG based on a limited world only has so much it can do.  It has to give people things to do while they wait for their friends to arrive... or give them opportunities to meet new folks, etc... and it has a strictly finite universe within which to do that.  Thus, grinding.

My issue with most simulated fishing is the fact that all you have to do to reel in a big fish is smash a button or do the same thing you did for every other fish when reeling it in. You can do that with small fish, but trying to fight a larger fish like that is more likely to damage your gear or yourself than anything. A marlin thrashing around on deck can spear you, and letting the line become slack is a great opportunity for a fish to break the line or unhook itself; likewise, having the rod at too steep of an angle or reeling too hard can also snap your line or rod. I could go on for hours about the significant challenges when fishing, but I think you get the idea. Hopefully the fishing system in Mythruna can keep me on my toes.

IMO, there is ONE game (series) that never really felt grind-y despite having an XP system... the Mass Effect trilogy. Other than the hacking skill and persuasion, there really was nothing keeping you from doing something, though it definitely wasn't an MMO, nor was it highly structured with individual skills. I wouldn't be surprised if some people beat the games with their default loadout and no upgrades as a challenge.

One day there will be a procedurally generated MMORPG that doesn't need XP, though. It'll come around. It will be mostly skill based, too, I wager. That, and it will likely have spectacular attention to detail.

[pspeed]

My issue with most simulated fishing is the fact that all you have to do to reel in a big fish is smash a button or do the same thing you did for every other fish when reeling it in. You can do that with small fish, but trying to fight a larger fish like that is more likely to damage your gear or yourself than anything. A marlin thrashing around on deck can spear you, and letting the line become slack is a great opportunity for a fish to break the line or unhook itself; likewise, having the rod at too steep of an angle or reeling too hard can also snap your line or rod. I could go on for hours about the significant challenges when fishing, but I think you get the idea. Hopefully the fishing system in Mythruna can keep me on my toes.

That level of interaction requires real time networking and most MMORPGs are not really real time.  They are click-to-roll-dice with fancy graphics.  This was true of WoW, it's true of Final Fantasy, etc..  I think unknowledgable players would probably argue with me but I can easily prove it in all cases.

Mythruna won't be an MMORPG (no 'massive') and it will be real time networked.  I have no idea what I will do for fishing, though.

One day there will be a procedurally generated MMORPG that doesn't need XP, though. It'll come around. It will be mostly skill based, too, I wager. That, and it will likely have spectacular attention to detail.

I think you will hopefully get to witness first hand all of the pushback I get for Mythruna not having XP.  It's so ingrained now that people just expect it.

And XP really is an ouroboros.  "Why is this 'package delivery' quest so low in XP?"  "Well, because you can just teleport right to where you want to go."  "Why is there so much easy teleporting everywhere?"  "Well, because no one would want to walk fifty times to deliver some package for the wizard."  "Why do I have to walk fifty times to deliver a package for a wizard?"  "Well, to earn more XP."  "Well, why can't one quest just give you more XP and we not have teleport?"  "Well, you will still end up doing a lot of quests..."

"Why does a sword cost me 100 gold to buy but I can only sell it for 1 gold."  "Well, because when you slaughter fifty goblins you'd get rich and flood the market."  "Why would I slaughter 50 goblins?"  "Well, because you need to earn that XP."  "Why is a goblin's XP so low?"  "Well, because you will be slaughtering 50 of them."  "?!?!?"

[pspeed]

Actually, what I find interesting about games with classic XP models is not how they implement it... but how they decide where to stop streamlining the grind process.

I mean, where do you draw the line of letting me teleport around everywhere or providing me with all kinds of HUD information to make my job easier?  How do you decide you've gone too far?

Because frankly, I'd be much more engaged in quests if, for example, I didn't have a little arrow pointing to exactly where I needed to go or putting a giant green flag above the NPC's head that I need t to talk to.  Granted, quests would be a lot more painful but then don't make me do so many of them.

[Rayblon]

That level of interaction requires real time networking and most MMORPGs are not really real time.  They are click-to-roll-dice with fancy graphics.  This was true of WoW, it's true of Final Fantasy, etc..  I think unknowledgable players would probably argue with me but I can easily prove it in all cases.

Mythruna won't be an MMORPG (no 'massive') and it will be real time networked.  I have no idea what I will do for fishing, though.

One day there will be a procedurally generated MMORPG that doesn't need XP, though. It'll come around. It will be mostly skill based, too, I wager. That, and it will likely have spectacular attention to detail.

I think you will hopefully get to witness first hand all of the pushback I get for Mythruna not having XP.  It's so ingrained now that people just expect it.

And XP really is an ouroboros.  "Why is this 'package delivery' quest so low in XP?"  "Well, because you can just teleport right to where you want to go."  "Why is there so much easy teleporting everywhere?"  "Well, because no one would want to walk fifty times to deliver some package for the wizard."  "Why do I have to walk fifty times to deliver a package for a wizard?"  "Well, to earn more XP."  "Well, why can't one quest just give you more XP and we not have teleport?"  "Well, you will still end up doing a lot of quests..."

"Why does a sword cost me 100 gold to buy but I can only sell it for 1 gold."  "Well, because when you slaughter fifty goblins you'd get rich and flood the market."  "Why would I slaughter 50 goblins?"  "Well, because you need to earn that XP."  "Why is a goblin's XP so low?"  "Well, because you will be slaughtering 50 of them."  "?!?!?"

Oh, it absolutely does require more than most mmorpgs are capable of, I agree... Which is why MMOs shouldn't do it, imo. If you can't make a feature fun... You don't put it in the game. That's how I see it anyway. At any rate, even Minecraft followed a similar recipe for their fishing. There are certain mmorpgs that don't rely simply on dice rolls; and unfortunately they also are heavily affected by latency. They're called action mmos, iirc. Unlike a normal mmo, you have pretty low health and tanking doesn't work out too well if you're just standing in the same place. Sword swings have to make contact, spells have to actually hit you and don't magically inflict damage just by you being x meters away, etc. It's pretty intense. That's not to say that leveling is obsolete in DN, because it definitely makes things significantly easier, but... you can feasibly complete a dungeon without losing any health despite being underlevelled and using crappy equipment. After the debacle with Wurm Online, I might pay that game a visit soon.

Also, your reply reminded me how MMOs normally ignore the heavy platemail on a knight or the giant broadsword they're carrying when you go to loot them. 99% of the time, from my experience, everything except their meager amount of gold just poofs. xD

What I think the issue people have with no-XP is... it's a more or less secure currency, I suppose, on top of prestige. You can accidentally drop a sword in a game, or sell something you didn't mean to sell to a trader, but your XP never leaves you(r character). Even then, I'm comfortable surviving in Minecraft with no armor. I don't need XP when I have experience, so the whole XP system is kind of silly to me as well. In Minecraft, with MCMMo on a server, it becomes less about building a strong town and reaching benchmarks... it becomes "I gotta reach level 1,000 fishing so I can get diamonds while I'm using my fishing bot!".

Now you have me thinking... How can the game show off people's merit? We don't have XP, but if there was some way to test a player's skill in X and give them some sort of emblem of prestige or something of the like for a certain level of mastery, perhaps that would help cull the masses. Like, showing that you can harvest a flawless pelt in a hunter's guild might earn you an emblem and that would work as a sort of achievement and prestige system. without actually changing anything outside of, perhaps, slight discounts in guilds that honor the emblems or something.

Oh and here's my thoughts on HUDs... I think even Minecraft has more OOC menus than it needs. My thoughts are, if you can model it in the environment instead of making a 2D interface, then you absolutely should. It might not be feasible in certain situations, but actually going through the motions of throwing ingredients in a pot or preparing a workspace to create a tool based off of schematics or something instead of clicking and dragging components into boxes on a menu... would be an amazing and streamlined departure from the typical RPG experience. A departure that would synergize amazingly with VR. I'm not gonna push it past this, but I think one of the reasons why Wurm is so confusing is because you literally have over twenty menus to contend with. Even Minecraft's anvils can be confusing at first, and they're dead simple. Buut... I guess putting all our fantasies and desires into one game would take far too long to implement. If I ever host a Mythruna server that becomes super successful, I might just take some of the proceeds to get some modders to implement this kinda stuff..

[Duff_Beer]

I dont mean to nitpick Rayblon, but it sounds to me that your lack of knowledge of the game upon entering it, is more your fault than th game's.
You made a beeline for the portal into the game without doing the tutorial which probably would have shown you how to do every little thing you needed.

If you had just gone through the tutorial and paid attention to what it was trying to teach you, you probably wouldnt be confused.

Also, youtube usually has tutorial videos for most online games. Soo... just use that.

[Rayblon]

I dont mean to nitpick Rayblon, but it sounds to me that your lack of knowledge of the game upon entering it, is more your fault than th game's.
You made a beeline for the portal into the game without doing the tutorial which probably would have shown you how to do every little thing you needed.

If you had just gone through the tutorial and paid attention to what it was trying to teach you, you probably wouldnt be confused.

Also, youtube usually has tutorial videos for most online games. Soo... just use that.

You can go back to the tutorial world, you know...

It's still confusing the second time around and doesn't teach you anything because you can't actually DO anything. They're literally exposing you to something equivalent to a D&D handbook and expecting you to know it without spending the whole day going through it.